Transcript: Navigating Matrescence – Getting Started on Your Motherhood Journey

This is a text transcript from The First Time Mum’s Chat podcast. The episode is called Navigating Matrescence – Getting Started on Your Motherhood Journey and you can click on the link to view the full episode page, listen to the episode and view the show notes.

Helen Thompson: Matrescence, which is the process of becoming a mother, is a difficult time for many women, and occurs each and every time we have a child. For many of the mums I speak with, it often leads to feelings including disconnect, grief, and self-doubt. For many, this is a highly challenging time as bodies, hormones, and brains change.

This week’s guest, Kirryn Lee, is a matrescence mentor, energy coach, mother of two and host of the Matrescence Awakening podcast.

During our chat you’ll hear Kirryn talk about the importance of putting yourself first as well as looking after you, so you can be fully there for your family, how she helps mums connect again to who they are in this new season of their life, the importance of releasing friendships that no longer serve you, so you are ready to welcome in new friendships and connections and so, so much more.

Hi Kirryn, and welcome to First Time Mum’s Chat. I’m delighted to have you here today and I’m looking forward to chatting with you all about matrescence, which is a topic that intrigues me.

Kirryn Lee: Hi Helen, thank you for having me, it’s so nice to be here.

Helen Thompson: So, I’m taking this from you. Being a mother can throw us into a world of self-doubt, disconnect, loneliness, and a whole bunch of other toughnesses and that no one tells us about. As a mom coach, how do you support moms into motherhood?

Kirryn Lee: So the way that I support moms in motherhood isn’t necessarily related to parenting and the mothering role. There are a lot of incredible people out there that support in that space, but I really come at it from the angle of really helping women to find who they are or reconnect with who they are, within motherhood.

When we become mothers, whether it’s the first time, second time, third time, whether we have a surrogate, whether we adopt, whether we become a stepparent, but when we have a child come into our life in some sort of way, it triggers this rite of passage called matrescence, and this really is a huge time of transition and shifts and changes. It’s as big as a transition as what we would go through with adolescence when we are really trying to figure out who we are in that period between being a child and becoming an adult. We go through this again during matrescence and it happens each time we have a child come into our life.

So with that comes a lot of big questions about who we are, what inspires us, what we wanna do with our career. Trying to understand who we are in our new body, ’cause our body changes, our hormones changes, our brain changes. So I really help moms try to connect back in with who am I in this new season?

Some women I work with I find have had a really strong sense of self before having children and then when they move into motherhood, that feels really challenging because everything changes and they don’t really know who they are anymore and some of my clients actually didn’t really know who they were before children and were just kind of going along with this status quo of the things that we typically see happen in society. We get the partner, we get the house, we get the dog, we have the kids, we have the career climbing, and then they get into motherhood and they go, hang on a second, I don’t love this, this isn’t actually what I wanted for myself. This isn’t the life that I wanted for myself. And not necessarily motherhood, but just the things that we do outside of that, those things that really kind of light us up and inspire us and make us feel excited to get up in the morning and go about our life.

So I really help with that kind of process of reconnection, I guess you could say, or even connection for the first time in, who am I in this season of motherhood?

Helen Thompson: Who you are in your spiritual sense as well, and spiritual sense doesn’t need to be God and Jesus and all that. There’s so much more involved in that, and that’s what I like about what you said on your webpage. You actually talk about spiritual awakening. Being a mother is a spiritual awakening. Yes, we go through all what you’ve said, but it’s a spiritual awakening to find out, oh, who am I, where am I going with this, what am I doing with this?

Kirryn Lee: Yeah thank you for bringing that in, because that is a really big part of the way that I see this transition, that it is a spiritual awakening, and I know that that spiritual term can come with some resistance, some negativity, because there’s a lot of different elements that come with that. For me, I really love to break spirituality down into this really practical thing that can help and support with that connection to self and with starting to look inward and be able to trust our intuition and trust that there are bigger forces working for us. So it doesn’t have to be this really, deeply weird woowoo out there thing that we tap into. It can actually be really simple, really easy, beautiful things that we can use throughout the day to help with that.

Really starting to see those spiritual tools and spiritual practices as ways to support us in this journey of discovering who we are and really leaning into that. If we don’t lean into the things that are gonna help us know who we are, it just creates more disconnect. I see it time and time again of women just being like, I don’t know what to do anymore, I don’t know how to feel supported, or I don’t know why I feel so lonely all the time. There’s really simple and beautiful tools that are part of the spiritual community that can help with that. So I try to, yeah, really bring it in a beautiful practical, soft sort of way as opposed to being like, okay, now you’re gonna be doing all of these. You have to believe in the crystals and you have to believe in the chakras, and you have to believe in the moon cycles. You get to pick and choose what parts of spirituality you wanna connect with. I help women discover how they wanna tap into that as well which is so fun.

Helen Thompson: I come from that side as well. I choose to tap into that part of me because I feel that when you do tap into that part of you, you learn so much about who you are, you learn so much about how you can support yourself and how you can support your children and as you quite rightly say, it doesn’t have to be this way that, you’ve gotta go to church every day, you’ve gotta do this, you’ve gotta sit and pray. It doesn’t have to be like that. It’s just a matter about tuning into you.

I don’t think of God as somebody up in the sky. I think of it more as, part of the universe, everybody is part of the universe and you are a part of that universe and your higher self or whatever you like to call it, is part of the universe and tuning into that can help you to support yourself, as I said, and also your children and it can help your children to see what you’re doing and encourage you to to be more yourself. Does that make sense what I’ve said?

Kirryn Lee: Absolutely and that’s something that I really love about matrescence and the work that I do because it really sees the woman, the mother, as the epicenter for everything else that’s going on around. We’re so often sold this story that we need to put everybody else first, and so many women hold onto this martyr story that we need to make sure that we are focusing on our kids and we’re focusing on our partner, and we’re focusing on our career and we’re focusing on our friends and we get pushed so far down the line. It is a bit of a cliche thing where we say you gotta fit your own mask first, but there’s so much truth to it in that when you are looking after yourself and when you are able to shift that guilt that often comes for women, when we start to prioritize ourselves and look after ourselves and care for ourselves and it doesn’t have to be big and convoluted. Just moments throughout the day and throughout the week where we start to really focus on ourselves and what we need and fulfilling that first and foremost, it supports in being able to show that for our children as well and the way that we respond and connect with everyone else and everything else around us.

So you also touched on another important thing that I like to bring into this conversation, which is around language, because we so often can think, well, I have to connect with it in a certain sort of way and have this certain sort of language and it’s just not true. There is so much language that really resonates for some and doesn’t for others.

So like you said, God. For me, God is not it, for me, it’s universe. For other people, it’s connecting to source or ancestors or spirit guides or a loved one that has passed, and there’s a lot of different ways that we can bring in things that feel really good to support in the body without having to push and say, well, here’s this spiritual box, you have to do this a certain sort of way, and it has to be a certain sort of way for you to connect in with it. No, no, no, I like to just, really squash that myth because you can call it whatever you want. Whether it’s a word you’ve heard before or whether it’s a word that you’ve just decided you like to connect with, whatever is gonna support you through this. The tools and the language is really what I like to help the women that I work with uncover because it is not about doing it perfectly or fitting within a box or having to have it look a certain way and that goes for mothering as well.

Spirituality can definitely help with this because it allows us to stop taking so much pressure and weight from the external sources coming and telling us how we should be mothering. We can start to release that and start to come back to our own center and start to decide what feels right for me and my family right now, and then being able to have that confidence to stand in it and know I’m learning what it feels like in my body to say yes and no to things.

And you know, that standard thing that’s happening and that I’m told I should be doing with my mothering, that’s a no from me and actually I’m gonna do it this way and stand in my power and stand in my truth with that and those tools really, really support with that whole process.

Helen Thompson: I agree with you there. I think that’s so important and you mentioned the guilt and all mothers do have that guilt, but it’s how you empower that guilt and how you work with that guilt and doing what you were suggesting is a way to do that. Some moms may find it hard, but it’s not about feeling guilty about being a mother, it’s just about feeling guilty, I guess, about what society is expecting us mothers to be able to do.

They’re expecting mothers to work and look after their kids and run around changing their nappies and doing all that but really, it’s all about you as a person, I think you mentioned spiritual awakening because you are awakening to a new person inside of you. You are awakening to a new part of your life. You are bringing in a new person into your life and it’s all about awakening. You mentioned also about the adolescent side as well. We all go through different phases of our lives. You’re a baby then you go through adolescence, and then you may go through motherhood or you may not, but it’s all about that awakening and realizing who you are as a person in each stage of your life.

Kirryn Lee: Yeah, absolutely and that’s a really exciting thing for me to be part of for women but I also know that that’s a really challenging thing because there can often be a lot of negativity, I guess, around the way that we can change and this concept of motherhood won’t change me, I’ll always be the person that does these things and loves these things and makes time for these things. Or if someone negatively says, oh, you’ve changed, you didn’t used to be like this, you’re a different person now and it can come with quite a lot of projection of negativity to change.

And so I can see women go into motherhood really grasping onto the things that they used to love and that used to work for them and used to inspire them, but it no longer does and there’s this real challenge to be able to shed those layers away to be able to welcome in the new. We can’t welcome in the new, if we’re so tightly grasping onto things that no longer serve us, there has to be space for that. So one of the things that I talk about with this, and it goes across all areas of our life, but just a really practical example, with friendships, it can be so hard to release friendships because we’re so connected to them and they’ve been with us through certain parts of our lives and we wanna hold onto them but if you get into motherhood and you’re no longer connecting in the way that you used to, or it just doesn’t feel right anymore, it doesn’t feel good anymore, it can feel like we wanna hold onto that because of the history that we have there. But if we do, it doesn’t allow space for new friendships and new connections to come in.

So really knowing that with these transitions and, and with these things coming up for us, it can often go into a place of a bit of a void where there’s this in-between period and that can feel really scary and really challenging because it’s kind of like we’re floating without feeling grounded or we’re feeling really disconnected and part of that is a really beautiful part of the process, but it can feel so challenging when we are in it, when we are in that void space, when we are in that disconnect, when we’re like, I don’t know who I am, it can feel so tough, but for me as a coach who supports women through this, I get excited by that because I’m like, there’s something here, something is waiting to come in, something’s waiting to materialize. We just need to figure out what it is and then trust the timing of that to happen to come to fruition. So for me, I see this as a period of play and exploration and actually giving the space that the challenges need, that those tough times and those tough emotions and tough feelings need, knowing that on the other side there’s growth and there’s beauty and there’s newness and buds are springing in.

Those seeds that have been planted are starting to sprout. Yeah, it gets to be a fun time of exploration as well as knowing that with that comes challenges and that’s all part of the process. It’s not you. You’re not doing anything wrong as a mother if you’re finding it hard and challenging, it is just part of the process.

Helen Thompson: Also being honest with yourself and expressing that you are having difficulties and you do need support, however that support is. Everybody talks about mothers need support and mothers need this, but it’s knowing with the spiritual side, being honest with yourself and expressing how you feel is so important.

Kirryn Lee: Absolutely, but so many women don’t actually know how they feel because we haven’t been taught how to know that or how to give that space and so it’s not uncommon for me to start a coaching series with someone and literally the first thing that we do is start to learn about what’s going on in the body and what that means and what you are thinking and what you are feeling, and how we connect with that.

I don’t know about anyone listening, but for me growing up, when I would have challenging times, I was sent off to handle that myself, to deal with that myself, the naughty corner kind of thing. This isn’t anything against my parents because everyone did the best that they could at the time and I love my parents and they’re so supportive. So it’s nothing to do with them, but that’s just how it was at the time. So now coming as an adult trying to learn about myself, I’m trying to say, okay, now I need to express these feelings and express these emotions and start to actually learn what I want, ’cause I haven’t known what that has been for the longest time because I’ve just been so conditioned and so used to just going with what people tell me I should want, or, thinking what I should be expected to want and just going with that rather than going, actually, no, I don’t like that, that doesn’t serve me.

Helen Thompson: I can definitely relate to that.

Kirryn Lee: Yeah, something that I wanted to mention just from something you mentioned before, as well, around the guilt side of things. The guilt to either spend time doing things for ourselves, spend money to have ourselves supported and held, it can often be a really, really complicated and layered thing. There’s something that is causing that guilt, and it often comes back to those sort of childhood beliefs and those childhood stories. So it’s part of my job to start really unpacking that with my clients and say, where is this guilt coming from and once we have the awareness of what’s going on, of what’s really driving that guilt, it becomes so much easier to start to shift and rewrite those stories.

When we have no idea where that guilt is being fueled from it can be really hard to shift that. I see it so often, and not just with guilt, maybe it might be feelings of shame, maybe it might be feelings of not wanting to express emotions, but there’s things that hold us back and there’s often an underlying story that I love to dig to.

I do that through supporting through my mentorship with my energy coaching spiritual tools. There’s a whole raft of ways that I do that. Part of what I love doing is just digging deep and uncovering the layers and really trusting that the layers are gonna show as my client has the capacity to meet those layers. So it’s not like we go diving head first and it’s going to be really deep and scary, trusting that each time I work with people we get deeper and deeper into those layers in understanding what’s going on for you here, yeah.

Helen Thompson: I think of an analogy when you say that about peeling an onion.

Kirryn Lee: Yeah.

Helen Thompson: When you are peeling an onion, you are taking off the skin and you are going through one layer and then you take off the other and you may have tears when you’re taking off each layer, but it’s getting to that root cause of actually thinking, oh, I can now cook this, I can now feel much more relaxed and much better.

Kirryn Lee: Yeah, that’s right. Yes and the onions a great one because there is often tears when we get to another layer. There is often tears. Yeah. Which is great. It’s great. It’s so good to express those emotions because when we start to expand our capacity with our emotions, it has to happen on each end of the spectrum. So they’re not bad emotions when we cry because, again, in childhood it’s like don’t express those bad emotions but no, we are rewriting that story. Anger, frustration, guilt, jealousy, shame, they are all just emotions. Not good or bad, but when we wanna expand our capacity to hold joy and love and connection and feeling inspired, with that expansion also comes expansion at the other end with those more challenging emotions. So it can be this, yeah, just the layers unfolding of all of these emotions, being able to be held and be expressed in our body and finding safety in those things because if we don’t feel safe to hold joy.

So for me, a story that I used to have and one that still pops up from time to time now. I wasn’t safe to feel happiness and joy because someone can take that from me. So I would rather self-sabotage and take away my own joy so people don’t take that away from me. So I had to start to teach my body that it’s actually safe to hold joy in it and feel safe to express that joy, whether that’s through dancing or singing or just getting really exaggerated with my body movements. So expanding that capacity expands at the other end as well and when I feel things, when I feel challenging emotions, I really let myself feel them because I know that I’m safe to do that.

Helen Thompson: Yeah, you can also express joy by crying too. If I haven’t seen my family for a long time and they suddenly turn up, I’d be crying, not because I’m sad, not because I’m upset, but because it’s joy. I guess it’s same when you’re a mother, well, sometimes. I know some moms don’t enjoy being mothers, and they love their kids, but they just don’t enjoy the process of being a mother. When your baby’s first born, it can be so joyous. You can actually have tears in your eyes because it’s just that beautiful feeling of having this special human being in your life.

Kirryn Lee: Yeah. Just being so overwhelmed by that joy, that’s right and not judging yourself for any way that any emotion wants to express itself and thank you for, for bringing up that comment about some people love their children, but don’t love the mothering, because I think there can be so much shame held around that. That’s definitely something I have felt. Of course I love my kids and it’s always interesting that we have to always preface that. I definitely love my kids, I always love my kids, but it’s just challenging at the moment or but I’m just not loving the mothering side of it. I don’t love having to tell my children 75 times to eat their breakfast and put their shoes on. I don’t love that part of mothering, but of course I love my children. When all we see on social media and through movies and stuff is this glowing, nurturing, goddess like figure who just loves and is connected to every part of mothering because her children are her complete world. Then we internalize and say, well, of course I love my children, but I don’t feel like they’re my complete world, or I don’t feel completely fulfilled by motherhood. It is okay to wanna have other things to feel fulfilled by and I can speak to this personally as well because it’s definitely something that I experienced when growing up from the moments that I can remember being so young, I believed that when I would become a mother, I would feel so completely fulfilled in life. That’s all I wanted to do was to be a mother, to be a homemaker. About three months into my mothering journey, I thought, well, this isn’t it. Yes, I love my child, but I don’t feel fulfilled in the way that I thought I would and that had to be its own recognition of that process and how I was feeling and a rediscovery of what actually is gonna fulfill me. I need so many different aspects and elements across many areas of my life to feel completely fulfilled. I can’t put that solely on my children because, well, number one, it’s unfair for them, but number two, I don’t feel whole, if I just have my focus on wanting to be a mother and on the other side of that, if someone does feel completely fulfilled by motherhood, that’s totally okay as well. We don’t always have to go feeling like we have to do more, more, more, more, more to be fulfilled. If someone feels fulfilled as a mother and a homemaker, amazing. It’s about just recognizing that and saying, yeah, this is where I am, this is where my heart wants to be, and I’m really okay with that. I don’t feel like I have to go doing all the extra things just because people tell me I shouldn’t be fulfilled by this.

Helen Thompson: I agree with that and that brings me to another point that you mentioned about the kids. You can learn so much through your kids and allowing yourself to be yourself. If you let go of the emotions behind it and you work with somebody like you to let go of those emotions, then you can actually see what you can learn from your kids and that that’s actually a hard thing, I guess to do sometimes as a mother to learn through your kids because you can learn so much through your kids and your kids are not there for you. They’re there for their own journey as well, and I think allowing them to have that journey, you’ve gotta allow yourself to have the journey as well.

Kirryn Lee: Yes, that’s right. Be open to it and yes, exactly. Our kids are our biggest mirrors. I’m experiencing this so deeply with my oldest daughter at the minute, who is five. I feel so triggered by so many things that she does, and I just see her as a mirror for the things that I still need to understand and work through and figure out for myself, and really just not projecting that back onto her, but knowing that what I’m being shown here and why I am being triggered, I know that there’s work for me to do there. It’s hard in those moments when you just feel so triggered but having the tools to be able to come back and center yourself and know that it’s just part of the process, those triggers are there as part of the process can be really supportive, yeah.

Helen Thompson: They’re also there for the kid to see different things as well. I think it’s a playful thing for both mother and child if you see it that way. You’ve got to, as you say, ground yourself to feel the playfulness, and to feel the joy in that process when you’re mirroring a kid and you think, oh gosh, she’s doing exactly what I did when I was a child. Gosh, she’s being exactly like me. You’ve gotta calm yourself down and think, oh, okay, well why is this particular emotion being triggered with me right now? What is it that I’ve got to do to overcome this? There’s something behind why she’s mirroring me, if that makes sense!

Kirryn Lee: Yes, absolutely and I think that’s a beautiful way to highlight the really spiritual tools that we can use to support in our days, but also we really need those practical tools as well. It’s not all just about trusting that I’m being triggered for a reason. It’s actually about having tools there to say, okay, I can recognize that, I have that awareness, now what do I do with it? What do I do with this? How do I start learning from this, changing my own beliefs around this? So having both of those worlds really merge together, in the spiritual realms and then the really practical stuff, I think that’s where the magic of the way that I support my clients really comes in because it’s not just fluffy, my support and my teachings, they’re not fluffy, they’re not abstract. Here’s these things that actually really support you in spirituality, and then here’s the really practical tools to start rewiring what’s going on for you.

It’s a beautiful way to show our kids as well, how to show up for themselves and how to support themselves. So doing it for ourselves first and foremost, because we know that we are better humans when we do those things, but also I wouldn’t expect my kids to just put everyone else ahead of themselves and never focus on what their needs are.

So I write most mornings for quite a while, I’ll write 3 pages, 3 A4 pages, and often my kids will wake up and that can either feel really frustrating because they’ve interrupted my time or I can see it as this beautiful thing where they’re seeing me prioritize my time and I say to them, this is really important for mommy, this helps mommy to get all of the thoughts out of her head onto paper, helps me be calmer, helps me understand what’s going on. So my five-year-old, she’ll often get out her own little notebook and she can’t write properly, but she’s writing letters and she’s like, I’m just getting all my thoughts out as well. So she’s really mirroring that back to me. So we’re a mirror for each other, or she’ll often sit down and do some deep breaths and try and calm herself. So when we can show up for ourselves and do that around our children, we don’t have to wait for the perfect conditions to do these things.

I can see that can sometimes be a resistance for some people, well, I don’t have half an hour to write and journal. Neither do I, but even if I don’t get half an hour in, even if I just get 10 minutes in, whatever it is, if my kids see me in that, they start to learn that it’s actually really important to do those things for yourself and whatever that looks like for you, that it’s okay to allow the children into these spaces when we are doing it and acknowledging that, yeah, it can feel frustrating if we get interrupted, but just know that there’s another day, right? Today’s happened, done what we can, what’s tomorrow gonna look like? It might look better, it might look worse, but it’s just about making sure that there is that space to be able to connect in some sort of way whenever you need it.

Helen Thompson: I think it’s the language you use as well when your kids are interrupting you in that space. It’s the language that you use that encourages them to, as you say, your lovely example is that she’s mirroring you.

Kirryn Lee: Yeah.

Helen Thompson: You were using the language as if to say, look, mom needs this space now and she’s just writing her thoughts, and then she learns all about reading and writing and supporting herself as well.

Kirryn Lee: Yeah, that’s right and the language is so important and as an individual, when you know why you are doing it, when you can feel the changes within yourself for doing it for either, whatever the tool is, meditating, doing new moon ceremonies, whatever it is, when you know why you are connecting to it, it is so much easier to have that language and tell your children why that is important to you instead of just thinking, oh, well I just saw someone on the internet do this and it must be important, so I’ll just try it and not having any connection to it. So that’s what I mean when I say there’s so many different tools that you can use and connect to, and it’s about finding what works for you.

That comes with trial and error. I’ve been on this journey for five years and I’m still learning what works for me. So when we are connecting with these new parts of ourselves through matrescence, and through spirituality, it is such a journey and it’s not linear by any means. It can feel like it’s so all over the place and it can feel like you’ve gone backwards and that is how it’s supposed to be and not thinking that we have to have a solution or a quick fix or there’s any winning or any finishing, it’s not like that. It is just a continual evolution and transformation and for me, that feels really exciting.

Helen Thompson: Yeah I think that’s what life is. It’s an evolution. It’s how we see life and how we cope with it.

Kirryn Lee: Yeah, absolutely.

Helen Thompson: So what can women do to prepare for matrescence?

Kirryn Lee: If women are pregnant and thinking about matrescence going forward, there’s not a lot we can do to prepare because we don’t know what it’s gonna be like, how we’re gonna feel. It’s just more about the awareness of it and knowing that it’s gonna come. We are going to feel these things where we feel really lonely and disconnected and who am I and why doesn’t this feel like I thought it would? All those challenging sort of thoughts and feelings, they’re gonna come and so just having awareness that they’re going to come can really lessen the charge when we do start feeling that way. Sharing with people around you that are supporting you, that, hey, this is a process that I’m going to go through.

Understanding about matrescence isn’t just for women. This is about spreading awareness about matrescence as a whole, about people in the workplace, family, friends, just anyone that’s gonna be around you. Helping them to understand if they don’t know already that there is this process that is gonna go through. It’s a biological process, you can’t escape it, there is no escaping it. We will all feel it no matter what you see on social media. We will all feel it at some point. So just having that awareness and having those conversations that, yeah, I might feel like I don’t know who I am and things are starting to shift and change and I might be having big questions and here’s how I might want to be supported, but I don’t really know, and I would just love for you to be really open to having those conversations as things come up for me through my process.

Helen Thompson: That’s a great answer for that. I love that. How can people work with you and where are you based?

Kirryn Lee: So I’m based in Perth, Western Australia, but I work online so I can work with anyone around the world. So I work one-on-one with clients. So I run either three or six month series, so all the information for that is on my website. I have a podcast of my own, it’s called Matrescence Awakening with Kirryn Lee.

So there’s a lot of really amazing interviews on there that I’ve got with people from all different realms of spirituality, which is such a fun place to go and explore if you are a little bit curious, but not really sure. There’s a lot of different modalities and ways of seeing the world that you’ll be able to get through those interviews.

I share a lot of solo thoughts as well. I’m most active on Instagram, so you can come and chat to me and connect with me on Instagram if there’s anything you wanna know more about or just kind of say hey, or just wanna let me know where you’re at or what you’ve loved about this podcast episode, I would love to have some conversations there as well.

Helen Thompson: Thank you Kirryn, I’ve really enjoyed talking to you and I’ve actually learned a lot about matrescence today, it’s been very interesting. Thank you so much for being on the podcast today.

Kirryn Lee: Thank you for having me, Helen.

Helen Thompson: I really enjoyed chatting with Kirryn, and I do hope you’ve picked up some good tips to help you in your matrescence journey. I’ve included links to Kirryn’s website, social media, and the Matrescence Awakening podcast, in the show notes, which can be found at MyBabyMassage.net/podcast/135.

Next week I’ll be chatting with Kaley Medina. We will be talking about Kaley’s three day potty training method and how this can be an amazing bonding experience whilst helping your child build confidence and independence. Be sure to listen to this episode when it comes out next week, and please subscribe via your favorite platform so that you get quick and easy access to all our episodes when they are live.